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Crasher

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I'm looking into replacing my almost new adjustable short arms with long arms for the improved ride quality. I'll probably have it done by next fall. Here in the southwest and on this site, most prefer the Clayton kit. Back home in WI. Rubicon Express is popular and recommended by the shop that I get things from. Others prefer BDS or Rusty's. Are they all OK? What makes one better than the other?? I've made enough costly mistakes getting to where I'm at now and I would like the next change to be the right one. I don't want to start a pis**** match here. I just want to try and determine what's best for my ZJ.

Thanks
 
Clayton is the best kit imho and multiple rigs on this site and I'm sure many others will swear by it. There's tons of reasons why to and not to buy Clayton's and the other's. Search should tell you :)
 
I'm going to say Clayton's hands down, but here is hopefully an un-biased (well, as un-biased as I could get) look to see what other stuff may be needed in addition to the kit itself:

Things to consider about long arm kits:
- Bolt-On vs. Weld-On - this is often debated, but the fact is that a bolt on kit could always be welded. Of course, if you don't have access to a welder or you don't trust your welding skills -- there is additional money that needs to be spent for the welding. Clayton's is mainly weld-on with a rear truss, and the others are bolt-on.

- Unibody stiffeners - these are included in Clayton's kit, but not in the others. Other than fabbing up your own, TNT/Trek is currently the only company to offer these. They will definitely add strength to your body, so it should have serious consideration. Of course this will be an additional cost for a Non-Clayton's kit.

- Rear Suspension Geometry - 5-link (non-Clayton's) vs. 4-link (Clayton's and I believe Trek/TNT?). I like the 4-link better personally because it gives more options for the bracketry on the rear axle (i.e. high clearance brackets). The strength of the unibody mount for the rear track bar is also another concern.

- High Clearance Arms - as crazy as this sounds, I actually prefer the low clearance arms since they protect the driveshaft on ledges. High clearance arms though have the obvious advantage of -- higher clearance. This has been debated before and there are definitely those two schools of thought that butt heads, so it's up to you. Trek/TNT, IRO, Rusty's are the only ones to offer high clearance arms.

- Belly Skid - A regular ZJ skid will not work with the Clayton's kit and possibly others, so be sure to look into that since it could be an additional cost.

- Exhaust - If you care at all about a muffler, you will almost definitely need custom exhaust work done to fit a muffler in there. This is an additional cost for pretty much any kit.

- The "Completeness" of the kit - some include shocks, others don't. You will need extended brake lines. Stuff like that could add additional cost. Keep in mind that you may (well, closer to "will) need to add in bumpstops and limit straps regardless of the kit.

- Cost - always a concern, but this can vary greatly based on your skills. Cost should include the kit itself AND other stuff (like unibody stiffeners, belly skid, exhaust, labor, etc).

Things to NOT worry about:
- Control arm strength - Tube vs. Square is often debated, but the fact is that both are damn strong and it's extremely unlikely to ever need to use the lifetime warranty on the arms most long arm kits have (I believe they all do, but I could be wrong).
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
Sirfuego: Thank you for a great review. As goofy as it may sound, I don't think I will go higher than the 5"s I have now. My 33s are new, my wife has to use a stool to get into it now and when in a 33 degree off camber position, it is tippy enough. A couple inches higher would be scary. I already have 4 1/2" of bumpstops front and rear and extended brake lines, so limiting straps would be the only thing I would have to add along with an exhaust system which I need to replace anyway. I would keep the 4 1/2"springs w/3/4" spacers and shocks.

I like wheeling the ZJ, but I no longer care to work on it, so I will have what ever kit I buy installed by a shop near Tucson. Money is a consideration, but not the issue. I just want the end result to be a rugged, dependable, good riding and handling Jeep.
 
Trek/TNT and IRO are the only ones to offer high clearance arms.

Rusty's also offers High Clearence arms.

I went with claytons and I am very glad I did, it comes with everything you need except for shocks, which is a good thing because it is really the only part that people would have personal preference in the stiffness they like....

Also you can get the claytons kit without springs if you want to keep the ride height that you are at now... or put the springs aside if you ever wanna throw the 35's on.... ;)
 
As goofy as it may sound, I don't think I will go higher than the 5"s I have now.
Far from goofy. I see no need to go higher than 5" for anything below 35s or 36s.

Keep in mind that due to the welding, shops that aren't Clayton's dealers may not be willing to do the install.

Rusty's also offers High Clearence arms.
Thanks. I fixed it.
 
Someone should move a copy of SirFuego's first post and put it into the " some things to consider about lifts" thread stickied at the top.

I have the Clayton kit under my rig and it does well. It is not as good as it could be but it's the best kit available IMO. I remember seeing pictures of the TnT long arm kit and I really liked what I saw there. Mainly it was the true four link long arm design of the front suspension. I think BDS does it that way too. The radius arms flex great though, even if they do eat the rubber bushings at a decent rate.

I definitely prefer weld on kits over bolt on kits. Bolt on kits should be welded anyway. Make certain you have a professional do your welding to the unibody. Make sure he is specifically familiar with welding thick plate to the thin unibody material. This person is probably more expensive per hour than average and it's money well spent.

There's my 2 cents :D
 
Thanks for the kind words about my first post. I'm sure it's not a complete list. I'll fix it with any errors I may have in it.

I have the Clayton kit under my rig and it does well. It is not as good as it could be but it's the best kit available IMO.
That's a key point right there. Clayton's is not perfect and could definitely be improved. Namely how the control arm mounts could be tucked up higher.

I personally haven't run into any problems with the radius arm setup yet, but I've never been in one with a true 4 link with panhard -- so I can't really provide a true comparison. I also don't notice any binding because of the way I am restricting flex with my setup.
 
As my rig sits now the center section of my front Clayton tranny cross member is bent up almost an inch. My passenger front lower arm is also bent about an inch all across it's length. All the frame side lower CA mounting tabs are bent over and almost touching the Johnny Joints. I have been straightening and/or cutting them down as they are beaten in by the trail, front and rear.

If the guys at Clayton Offroad are reading this they need to make the center portion of their front cross member MUCH stronger and the outer CA mounting tabs should be made of either .375 or.500 thick plate. :cool:

Crasher, make sure which ever long arm kit you get that it uses a removable tranny mount. With the Clayton kit the front CA pockets are welded permanently to the frame and the center part is removable. This is so you can service the tranny, t-case or even just replace the tranny mount that always dies. Some kits use a one piece front cross member.
 
I personally haven't run into any problems with the radius arm setup yet, but I've never been in one with a true 4 link with panhard -- so I can't really provide a true comparison. I also don't notice any binding because of the way I am restricting flex with my setup.

Mine is no flex machine either. Because of that it is more predictable on the trail and just plain works better. :) I don't run rear spring post extensions. If I hang a rear tire that coil is still snug. My front is not as restricted however and at full droop the spring will just barely unseat up top. I am getting some limit straps soon to fix this.

The difference between a front radius arm setup and say, a three link like the RockKrawler system is stored energy. As the radius arm system flexes it begins to bind. So long as the front suspension uses rubber bushings this is not a problem. The rubber bushings will absorb the bind through deflection and do so well into the usable range of flex*. However it does still bind and as you flex out crawling over that huge rock in the middle of your favorite trail the front suspension is storing energy. As your rig tilts off camber and your front tire stuffs into the wheel well that side's front coil is storing energy too. As your center of gravity (COG) decreases due to your rig being off camber it is easier for the coil spring to release the energy and extend again, causing you to flop over and scare the piss out of your passenger. The radius arms work the same way, granted to a much lesser effect. As they flex out they are essentially being made to work by the weight of the rig. As your rig rolls off camber going over a large obstacle less of your ZJ's weight is being used to make the radius arms work. The torsional bind finds it easier to alleviate itself. I swear I have felt my suspension feel like it was trying to flop me over.

What it all comes down to is this. Take two identical ZJs, one with a radius arm front and one with a three link front and flex each one out with a forklift until they flop. It is my opinion that the ZJ with the radius arms will flop first.






*I define "usable flex" as the range of the coil spring from almost fully collapsed to almost fully extended. If you are "dropping coils" your suspension is not set up properly to flex as much as it does.*
 
As my rig sits now the center section of my front Clayton tranny cross member is bent up almost an inch. My passenger front lower arm is also bent about an inch all across it's length. All the frame side lower CA mounting tabs are bent over and almost touching the Johnny Joints. I have been straightening and/or cutting them down as they are beaten in by the trail, front and rear.

If the guys at Clayton Offroad are reading this they need to make the center portion of their front cross member MUCH stronger and the outer CA mounting tabs should be made of either .375 or.500 thick plate. :cool:

Crasher, make sure which ever long arm kit you get that it uses a removable tranny mount. With the Clayton kit the front CA pockets are welded permanently to the frame and the center part is removable. This is so you can service the tranny, t-case or even just replace the tranny mount that always dies. Some kits use a one piece front cross member.
I would say your an expert at bending all things metal though, LOL. So for most we wouldnt bend things to such an extent. Haha, just kidding
 
As my rig sits now the center section of my front Clayton tranny cross member is bent up almost an inch. My passenger front lower arm is also bent about an inch all across it's length. All the frame side lower CA mounting tabs are bent over and almost touching the Johnny Joints.
Same problem here. Although I would rather hit the mounts than the control arm ends, to be honest.

If the guys at Clayton Offroad are reading this they need to make the center portion of their front cross member MUCH stronger and the outer CA mounting tabs should be made of either .375 or.500 thick plate. :cool:
Are you running the belly skid? That definitely adds some rigidity to the crossmember. Despite it being 1/4" plate, the Clayton's skid could be reinforced, too. It apparently bows inward when you are doing a full throttle assault trying to hook up the tires while the belly is teetering on a rock with most of the weight on the belly skid...
 
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