I was wondering on what people thought asbout the sevre duty 7" rock krawler lift. I wasd thinking about getting that or goin with a 4.5 rubicon with 2 " spacers. Which do you people think is best

I don't know of anyone w/ first hand experience w/ their ZJ or WJ kit. There are a few that have run their XJ's kits and generally people have been pleased. It seems that people around these boards either love RK or hate RK.

Personally, I'm not the hugest fan of the 3 link design they use on their front (actually, it may not be 3 link anymore--I remember someone saying they went a different route) and the height of their coils. I do like their rear setup however.

Cody

As Cody correctly stated the coils they use leave something to be desired IMHO. The coils themselves could be made of a thicker material or more windings put into place, but they seem to ride pretty darn good and only start to bow after you have coilbinded them up into and 'S' (I got a picture of this if interested. On the WJ they did go back to a 4 link design primarily due to the COG of the WJ. They are TOP HEAVY pigs. The rear tri-link is pretty cool, although I have trepidations about attaching ANYTHING using differential center section bolts. A better idea would have been to use a combo of the upper and lower axle side mounts and attached it with some bracketry around the dif. Overall the kits work great in real life, but only one here has it currently installed on a ZJ. They have had bad luck with their heim suppliers. The samples they submit for evaluation are of a much higher quality IMHO than what they eventually produce. I think they are of a sufficient quality now though to warrant continued abuse trouble free. I have personally seen the heims go through 4 variations. The best being the pre-production units of what they are currently shipping. Other than that, minor changes have been made to the front trackbar to maximize flex without interfering with the axle side bracket at full droop. The wall thickness of all bushing eyelets should now be .5" instead of the previous .25".

Matwaz,
I am ready to order the 8 inch kit from Rockrawler for my WJ. After reading your previous post it seems to me you know your stuff. I just need to know if you have heard anything bad about the new lift. How was the quality of the ZJ lift?? Any advice would greatly help me. Do you know if you have to trim the rear fenders to fit 35's. I asked one guy at Rock Krawler and he said yes they did trim the rear fenders.(or bumpers).Then I emailed another guy at Rock Krawler and he said they did not touch the rear only the front. As I said before any advice you have I would greatly appreciate.[/b]

I visited the RK guy's last Friday and spent about 2 hours looking over the WJ and then they took me for a ride. I to am very interested in the kit for my WJ. I was highly impessed at the build quality of what I saw. It almost looked like it cam from the factory. As for triming, Only the front was trimed, but both on the frontside and backside of the wheel well. There was no trimming in the rear. The ride of the truck was amazing. It handled as well as my stock WJ (I followed it for 5 miles) and on the Freeway was completly stable @ 65 MPH. Even direction changes did not bother it. I could not feel any driveline shudder at all. But there was a ton of vibration from the tyres they have on it. Unbearable in my mind. They assured me it was the tyres that it was comming from, and I must admit, it did feel that way. After checking this truck out, I am definatly going to be getting the kit

Wow, that is quite surprising, no trimming in the rear? It is very close with 33's. In fact, this is why Dan suggested to me I stick with 33's, because he thought it would be quite expensive to get the 35's to work. How flexy is it? Do they extend the bumpstops somewhat? Perhaps they have less backspacing and can get it to work. Interesting....

The wheels they are running on it right now, are 15" rims of a full size Chevy truck. Dont remember the backspacing, but they did say they had to grind the front calipers down some to get the to fit (ouch). As for bumbstops, they are integrated into the shocks (or so they say), and I did not see any hanging around. They did comment that one should be looking for front wheel drive wheels to get the right amount of backspacing for tyes as big as their's. Go figure.....

Rock Krawler told me they are running 3.5 inch backspacing...I sent them an email regarding this. I did not want to grind down the calipers.

This is what I emailed them last week.

I am going to order your 8 inch WJ lift in the next few weeks. I have a few questions before I do so. First of all have you experienced any problems with anything? Does it rub any where when you are at full turn? It seems like someone told me that you are running 3.5 inch backspace. The only thing I can find in a 16 x 8 is 4.5 inch backspace. Do you think 16 x 8 with a 35 x 12.50 tire will be fine with the 4.5 inch backspace? I just need to make sure before I order the wheels.
Any other information you have for me would be appreciated.

This was there relpy

That tire and wheel combination should be fine. The tires do rub on the
untrimmed section of the rock sliders we are using, but no where else. We
did trim the fender wells as shown on the website. Our offset is a little
excessive in my opinion. I believe yours should be better. If you have any
further questions please let us know.

Respectfully,

Rock Krawler

Glad to hear somebody actually went overthere and observed the thing first hand instead of following the propoganda. I work on their stuff, I know what problems they have had and what will NEVER break. Overall, I believe they put out very high quality products and wouldn't hesitate in a second(money permitting of course) to buy and install one of their kits. I am actually having alot of pressure put on me to get a 7.0 ZJ kit on my 5.9, but alas it is not anywhere near my budget right now with the axle and T-case upgrades I would necessitate for my type of wheeling.

My *** there was NO trimming to get 35's in that well. I can't even stuff a 33" SSR in mine without rubbage BADLY! When GDS does my rear axle swap, they are moving the axle back so that they can trim the **** out of it and fit a 35" tire. Why would they do this to mine and Anton's if it would fit already? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T! That is why our axles are being moved back...there is nothing to trim up front due to the passenger doors. BUT if they are moved back, the rear bumper will be trimmed along with the well.
Plain and simple, they MUST have trimmed their well to get a 35 in there. That is a FACT!

Well, Tony, I believe them when they say that. With the long arm suspension, the wheels have less lateral movement as you stuff them, so if you are thinking about your experiences with the short control arms, you may be mistaken. Unless you have your long arms on already? Everyone thinks my 33" MT/Rs will rub on my stock untrimmed rear bumper, but in fact they don't. I have a lot less rubbing with the long arms than I did with the stock arms. And considering that we did get the 33's to work reasonably well with 6" lift and short arms, why not 35's with 8" lift and long arms, and a much smaller backspacing? Their backspacing is actually quite small. That thing must have a really wide stance. Even so, it would be nice to see one close up, and/or flexing. It is hard to imagine.

It would be interesting to hear what the RTI is for the RK WJ with 35's. That might explain a few things.

This is just pure conjecture on my part, but drawing on my experience of the shocks they use with internal bumpstops, they actually try to minimize body interference. My "guess" although educated as to their practices, still a guess, is that they are internally bumpstopping the rear to not stuff enough to get the tires into everything. I am with Tony on the fact that a 35 just won't fit back there fully stuffed. Can't bend the laws of physics although I try sometimes. Their kits are really set up for MEGA droop. In fact, this is a disagreement that I have with the rear setup on the XJ kits. Shocks are hindering suspension travel on the side of caution. Hell with caution, give me FLEX!!!!!

Matt, there is no doubt that a 35" tyre won't fit without trimming, because the 33" MT/R doesn't.... (we also had to do the bumpstop thing to prevent damage).

But even so, if they said they didn't trim the rear, then I believe them, that was my point. Like you said, they go for more droop than stuffage. Pretty much the opposite of where people are going these days, but maybe it makes sense with a late model vehicle like a WJ (that you don't want to hack up just yet).

I would really like to see a forum member get one of these kits installed, would like to see the pix and reports. :smile:

I want to seee it stuffed. It wil answer all of our questions then! I can see that you wouldn't rub while driving with a longarm setup...I was talking about stuffing it in the well during a flex. We all know that we flex our Jeeps every time we wheel. It is inevitable. I just can't believe that they got a 35" to fit in there during a flex...it is impossible. If my 33" tire rubbs while in the well, there is no way that a 35" wouldn't. The WJ's aren't that much off in design.
I do here what you are saying about the short arms v the longarms though and I agree...but the well remains the same! Unless that thing is soo wide that they just bypassed the wells alltogether...but I doubt it. See what I mean, LA Silver?

How much is their WJ kit anyways? I keep hearing prices thrown out...anyone know for sure...or better yet...anyone know who is buying one?

Tony, they are waiting for some parts to come in (heims or shocks would be my guess), but they stated to me yesterday that they will be shipping kits out late this week. That to me says that somebody has ordered them(unless I accidently get a kit in the mail :D ). The price varies whether or not you opt for a SYE and DS.

I talked to them about it for about 5 weeks and they said the complete kit is $2200-$2400 including the extended DS and SYE. Look on there website. I think that says $1700 but without the the SYE and extended DS. Thats my .02

-RJ

I asked them about the SYE conversion for the 247/249, and they said it was kinda pricey. My cost was 375.00 for that and I don't remember if that included the DS or not. Definetly makes a case swap seem a cheap alternative by default.

They told me $1750.00 then he figured around $150.00 for shipping. He said dont mark my work on the shipping. I asked him about the Driveline and he refered me to Six States. The guy at Six States told me it was around $375.00. He told me to just bring the Jeep down and they will build it for me. I got my money for everything (lift, driveline, tires and wheels)Im ready to order it today!!!!

Yep, Six states makes the SYE. It uses a old 205 conversion they did and apparently adapts to the 247/249 quite nicely. I was kinda tight lipped about the manf. of the SYE as I didn't know how much I was allowed to disclose.

Good, good.

I am hearing some ugly sounds coming from my rear driveshaft, when I coast at highway speeds. :( This was after all the flexing, etc.

Those driveline upgrades may be necessary.

I got my money for everything (lift, driveline, tires and wheels)Im ready to order it today!!!!

Excellent! Keep us informed, this sounds exciting! :thumbsup:

Good, good.

I am hearing some ugly sounds coming from my rear driveshaft, when I coast at highway speeds. :( This was after all the flexing, etc.

Those driveline upgrades may be necessary.Aren't you still on original ujoints? If so, maybe they are just getting a little bit tired at those angles. Spicer 5-153X I believe. Only like $11 a piece jobber cost.

I called six states they said for a custom driveline for the 242 T/C it would be around $500.00. I guess the 242 has a larger output shaft. He has only done one and that was for the Rock Krawler WJ when they came to Utah. He said the price may be cheaper but its all custom for now.

Back to the tire issue. It might depend what 35" they are running also. I saw a picture several months ago in one of the printed mags showing a 35" claw next to a 33 & 35 BFG. The 35" claw was closer to the 33 than the 35 bfgkm's. Assuming the 32 MT/R's vs 32 BFGkm proprotions are the same (MTR was alot wider and taller on my same rim) then that would lead me to assume that a 33" MT/R would be darn close in size to a 35" claw. Just food for thought. I don't even know what tire RK is running and I am not sure that it was the claw that was compared, it might have been the Xterain.

You guys going to 8" better make sure that the source of vibrations isn't from the front shaft and from the tires only. The low pinion 30 with 8" of lift most likely won't cut it unless you cut the axle yokes and rotate them to improve caster and pinion angles. The slip yoke in the rear has to go as it is a source of vibrations through the rear. The other thing you want to consider is that running on 35's with the stock CV joints up front is asking for trouble on the trail. Adam's busted at least one stock one, and another one that he rebuilt himself.

I only have some minor vibes at over 65mph, and these are similar but not even quite as bad as the 40-50mph vibes I had with the S4W and U jointed front d/s. I prefer to drive slower than 65 with a vehicle this high anyway, so I couldn't care less. There are no vibes at all below that.

AAMC is correct...the low pinion will most likely NOT be the optimal method for 6"+ due to the vibes. Cutting/relocating the yokes won't solve all the problem, because your spring perches are now MAJORLY angled forward, creating bowing of the springs forward. NOT a good thing to have if you want longevity.

Secondly, I'm EXTREMELY leery of having "built in" bumpstops inside the shocks. The axle side mount will probably be OK, but how long do you think it'll take for the upper rear shock mount to rip out of the side of the framerail? Think about it...people are losing upper control arm mounts all the time, and THEY are braced over an area of say 6 square inches. Even with the reinforcement of the stock upper shock mount, I'd be surprised if it lasted very long if you are hitting it with a heavy load more than a few times. It's essentially a slide hammer with a Jeep as the ballast, and I'm sure you can imagine what damage you could do with a slide hammer on thin sheet steel! :eek:

AAMC is correct...the low pinion will most likely NOT be the optimal method for 6"+ due to the vibes. Cutting/relocating the yokes won't solve all the problem, because your spring perches are now MAJORLY angled forward, creating bowing of the springs forward. NOT a good thing to have if you want longevity.



That's the other thing I neglected to mention, the spring perches and everything else. I looked into the whole thing a while back. No sense in throwing cash into a dead horse.

My front springs definitely have a nice bow to them, can't imagine that being particularly good and I'm sure it'll influence their compression ability. It must be so much worse at 8" although the 4" spring and 2" spacer do contribute to the problem. Wish I could have 6" springs made, alas no cashola. Gonna have to get my dead horse rotated back a notch cause at 1.8* caster I think I'm pushing it a bit far :oops:

I called six states they said for a custom driveline for the 242 T/C it would be around $500.00. I guess the 242 has a larger output shaft. He has only done one and that was for the Rock Krawler WJ when they came to Utah. He said the price may be cheaper but its all custom for now.

Six states in SLC? I could buy a shaft and almost two spares from them for that. Is there something special or magical that I'm missing about this $500 driveline? There isn't anything unusual about a 242 t-case-durango's and XJ's have been using them for years.
They must see you're shiny new 'dub coming a mile away. I guess I can't blame them--if someone called me and said "yeah I just spent 2000 dollars on a long arm kit for my 2002 grand cherokee......" I would be like, "yeah bring it down, it'll only be $500 and you'll be hooked up". Maybe they'll refill your blinker fluid while their at it. ;) :grin:

Cody

Well I just had my blinker fluid already filled last week. But I am running low on headlight fluid. Do you think they carry that!!!

I thought the $500.00 was kinda expensive. I dont know everyday the price keeps going up for everything I want to do. The only thing that helped me out was the wheels I want are 6 weeks on back order so I am getting black wheels for now. They are a little cheaper than the beadlocks.

I'll post some pix as soon as I can borrow a digital camera. My springs do bow a little, but not too much. Less than I expected, since they are 8" springs. My front bumper is a little over 2" higher than it was with the S4W and BB spacer, so that the lift is somewhere between 7 and 8 inches over stock. The new springs have a larger diameter than the original springs, so it helps a little with the bowing. A bracket from another lift kit was used to move the attachment point of the front sway bar assembly down and forward. Moved down about 2" and forward about 1.5". So there is no longer any interference at all. It also helps a little since the links were designed for a 4" lift, not 8". The only issue is that the front skid doesn't work anymore. BVOR are fabbing something new for me up there. Hopefully oil-change friendly for the dealership.

As for angles, etc. Well, what can I say, other than I have done 7000 miles with this setup, and 3 offroading trips. It's not ideal, but it works just fine, and I personally think it is unlikely that I'll break it.... I'm just not that hardcore, and prefer to use finesse with obstacles, not torque. On the highway... No issue. 7000 miles is safe enough to make that observation.

They must see you're shiny new 'dub coming a mile away.

It's all a matter of perspective. I spent more than $500 on my hood louvres.

There is no free lunch. If the lunch looks like it is free, you probably had to make it yourself.

Really I dont care that it is $500.00..I mean after I spend the money for the lift, tires and wheels, whats another few hundred dollars for the driveline.

2002WJ,

I'm guessing that the $500 for the driveline includes a SYE? That's about the price I paid for my SYE + Driveline from Tom Woods for my 242 conversion. If that's just for the driveline then I would give Tom Wood a call. He will build and ship in 24 hours. You could even pick it up at his place in Ogden if you don't mind the drive up from SLC. Do you have a 242 (selec-trac) or 247 (quadra-trac II or quadradrive)?

Have you considered Clayton's long arms? I can't speak to the RK kit since I haven't seen or used one, but I can vouch for Clayton's kit and it is a nice piece of work.

If you're really considering going to 8" then I would stop by and check out my ride. It's usually left in Alpine, UT and you're more than welcome to stop by and see it. I'm in Germany right now but I'm going to be back in Alpine next friday and then Saturday I'm headed to Moab. I'm running clayts arms, 8" valley springs, Tera 50 front, Tera 60 rear, ARB's, 4.56's, 242 conversion, etc. I have 33" SSR's mounted, but I've got some new meats in my garage that I've got to find wheels for.

Do you have a V8 or a I-6? If you run 35's I would recommend re-gearing. I was running 33" SSR's with the stock 3.73's and you could definitely feel the power loss. Since then I've added a ton of weight so re-gearing was an absolute must for me.

Good luck with the build up. Drop me a line if you want to meet up and check out my WJ.

Later,

Mike

Mike, how hard was it to do the Tera 60 and the Tera 50?
I've been thinking about going with dual Tera 50s next year. Did you keep your ABS and such?

TIA
Brett

Brett, Glad to see you over here!! This place is much better than JU, huh?? :D I just sent you an email.

Henley, forgive me for asking, but how did you manage to spend 500 for houd vents?? One can get them for 89 bucks thru Nick. Unless install was a killer...interesting regardless. Any word on those springs that you swapped out??

Sean

Sorry to everyone...It is the SYE and DS for the $500.00.

Mike,

I am running the 242 (selec-trac) with the V-8. I have been looking at Claytons kit I just dont want to buy everything seperate. ...I have heard really good things about Clayton's but I didnt really want to spend the time looking for all the parts to make this thing work. I thought the RK kit was good, but if I can get some advice from you maybe its not really as hard as I think it is to get the Clayton's kit with the springs and shocks etc etc..

I figured if I buy the RK kit which is $1750.00, $200.00 for shipping, $500.00 for Driveline and SYE, and $1270 for the wheels and tires. Basically $3800.00...How much is the Claytons Kit with springs and everything to make it work.. I would love to put 4.56's in it but I cant get that much money right now. If I re-gear it I want ARB's front and rear..

Have you done everything yourself??If not what shop does all your work? I would love to come down and see your Jeep. Just tell me where it is and when I can come down I would like to talk to you and find out the price for the Clayton's Kit,springs, etc,etc... You are not the first person I've heard say good things about the Clayton's stuff.
When I first started looking at lifts
I wanted Clayton's before RK...I just didnt want to go through the hassel of buying everything seperate, maybe its not as hard as I thought.. I REALLY NEED SOME ADVICE.

Ryan

Mike, how hard was it to do the Tera 60 and the Tera 50?
I've been thinking about going with dual Tera 50s next year. Did you keep your ABS and such?

TIA
Brett

They make a Tera 50 rear end? I thought that was only a front end.

I'm sure it wasn't too bad--Mepco probably just had it all set up so all that had to be done was bolt it in, no?

Dude, I want to see that rig too. Very stout drivetrain--if only I had the cash to get all that stuff. My problem is that if I had a drivetrain that could stand up to that much abuse, I would probably abuse it just that much and I don't think a WJ could survive it. :)

Cody

Sorry to everyone...It is the SYE and DS for the $500.00.

Mike,

I am running the 242 (selec-trac) with the V-8. I have been looking at Claytons kit I just dont want to buy everything seperate. ...I have heard really good things about Clayton's but I didnt really want to spend the time looking for all the parts to make this thing work. I thought the RK kit was good, but if I can get some advice from you maybe its not really as hard as I think it is to get the Clayton's kit with the springs and shocks etc etc..

I figured if I buy the RK kit which is $1750.00, $200.00 for shipping, $500.00 for Driveline and SYE, and $1270 for the wheels and tires. Basically $3800.00...How much is the Claytons Kit with springs and everything to make it work.. I would love to put 4.56's in it but I cant get that much money right now. If I re-gear it I want ARB's front and rear..

Have you done everything yourself??If not what shop does all your work? I would love to come down and see your Jeep. Just tell me where it is and when I can come down I would like to talk to you and find out the price for the Clayton's Kit,springs, etc,etc... You are not the first person I've heard say good things about the Clayton's stuff.
When I first started looking at lifts
I wanted Clayton's before RK...I just didnt want to go through the hassel of buying everything seperate, maybe its not as hard as I thought.. I REALLY NEED SOME ADVICE.

Ryan

Looks like someone better do more research into building up their WJ before throwing lots of money into it ;)

They make a Tera 50 rear end? I thought that was only a front end.

Cody, as far as I understand you can use the Tera 50 front or rear. That is according to their ad anyways.... Jim from Tera Flex said it would be no problem.
I'm not sure what would be involved in the front but the rear would be hella easy. All the innards from a Dana 44 will slide right in. You'd just have to swap brackets,brakes etc. This set-up would allow you to keep your tone rings and everything, plus the advantage of a high pinion.

Brett

Brett,

Teraflex built the Tera housings for me and I had a local shop do the rest of the work (brackets, brakes, etc). I kept the stock WJ brakes and used the stock tone rings to keep the ABS. I didn't want to risk trying to get speed output from another source.

Originally, I had planned on going with just a Tera 50 in the rear. I mainly wanted to swap my rear end because at the time there were no lockers or 4.56's available for the D44-A. The problem with the Tera 50 in the rear is that you'll be running the 44 reverse cut gears and they are going to be roughly 30% weaker than a low pinion 44 in the rear. I didn't want to downgrade, so I went with the 60 HP. Also, the stock WJ 44-A tubes won't press into the Tera 50 housing. The T50 is set up for 3" tubes. The cost delta between the T50 and the T60 was pretty small. The down side of the 60 is the added weight (~260lbs xtra).

I had no intention of swapping the front end out....but after thinking it through I figured I might as well do it right up front. I didn't want to put money into the low pinion 30 and then swap it out later down the road.
My recommendation would be to avoid the dual T50's. If you're going to do a 50 in the rear you might as well step up to the plate and get the 60 (assuming you're running some big meats). You'll be worry free and you'll have more clearance than your 44!

Ryan,

Here's a rough estimate of the cost for the Clayton route
~$1800 shipped for Clayt's kit
~$200 to $300 for shocks
~$300 to $550 for springs
~$400 for DPA, Adj Track Bar, brakes, parking brake cable, bump stops, etc

There's going to be little stuff here and there that you'll need. If you want my honest recommendation I would go with the Tera 4" kit unless you want to do an 8" right. I'd find it hard to lift a 2002 WJ 8" and not want to work out all the details. If you want ARB's front and rear then you're going to need a new rear end because they don't make one for the d44-a. Plus, if you're at 8" you'll prob want a HP front end to combat the vibes you may get. You may have vibes, and you may not... All I can tell you is that I had a fair amount of vibes with my 6" lift but I was also running 5 degrees of caster (the less caster the better the pinion angle and less vibes....5 to 7 degrees of caster is supposed to be optimal). I was also running a transfer case lowering kit which helped the rear angle at the expense of the front angle.

All the major work on my WJ has been done by a shop (axles & lift). I do as much as I can myself (time and skill permitting). I'll be in town next Friday. If you want to check it out drop me an email.

Later,

Mike